All info off guns

A recent thread commented on the weird gun damages for the AP guns. So this afternoon, I got out my stopwatch and calculator and figured out the damage per second of each of the normal channel guns for APs. The following are my results:

The guns are in order of level, and to me it looks like the damage per seconds are out of whack. Both the quadoty and clawjous do more damage per second than the level 11 oafinster!

I think in a recent update the stontrile’s damage was reduced, because it used to hit much harder. And I think an attempt was made to make the oafinster better, but its still is not right. I think it might be worth looking into this further.

Now maybe my math is wrong, or by using the max damage I am skewing the data a little, but I have to say that the results seem to me to reflect the actual state of things.

Selecting a concealed carry gun is a very challenging task especially during the summer months. I offer this insight from Syd at “The Sight 1911″.

Selecting a Pistol for Concealed Carry
By Syd

If you are reading this, perhaps you haven’t made up your mind or have questions about your selection of a personal defense handgun. There have been many articles written on this subject, most of which boil down to a discussion of calibers and actions. While the caliber and action discussion is important, I find it incomplete and lacking in some important considerations for a person who carries a concealed handgun for self defense. Hence, my point of departure is what it means to live with a pistol every day.

Conceptual Basis

The paradox of the concealed personal defense weapon is that it is something you hope you will never have to use for its intended purpose, but with which you must achieve a level of mastery and familiarity comparable to the other tools you use to survive and get through your day. You wouldn’t drive to work in a car that you didn’t know how to operate. You wouldn’t wear a coat that was three sizes too small or use a carpenter’s saw to slice up a pot roast. No, you use the tools appropriate to the job and you learn how to work with them competently. The same holds true with a self defense pistol. You should know how to operate it and have the level of skill necessary to use it safely and effectively. It should fit your hand and your lifestyle because you will be spending a lot of time with it. It should be comfortable to shoot and hopefully to carry, although when asked if a carry gun should be comfortable to wear, master trainer Clint Smith said, “Your carry gun should be comforting, not comfortable.” Your pistol should be powerful enough to do the job and accurate enough to hit the target. It should be completely reliable, and its operation should be as familiar to you as riding a bicycle or brushing your teeth. You must also have a clear understanding of the legal issues surrounding the use of deadly force — when you can and when you can’t — and the methods and techniques of using a gun in a self defense situation. Sounds like a lot? You’re right; it is, and if you are unwilling to master the skills and concepts of lethal force, do yourself a favor and just don’t carry a gun. (See also The Psychology of Self Defense and the Force Continuum)

Skill and Familiarity

Handguns are not easy to shoot well. The ability to consistently put bullets into a target quickly and in the places which will stop an attacker is a skill that requires a lot of practice. Too many people have the notion that a pistol is a kind of magical talisman and the user need only take it out and wave it around and the problem will magically disappear. Nothing could be further from the truth. A gun brandished at the wrong time and without the fighting skills necessary to employ it effectively will make a whole bunch of new problems, including getting you killed or arrested and charged with some very serious crimes. Hence, making the decision to carry a gun should be made only with the commitment to practice and learn. This may take the shape of attending classes or participating in a practical shooting sport like IDPA. At the very least, a regular practice schedule should be part of the package. This means that you will be spending a lot of time with your pistol. The gun should be comfortable in your hand, have manageable recoil, and be sturdy enough to stand up to heavy use in practice sessions, matches, and classes. The gun should also have reasonable accuracy. You should be able to consistently put all of your shots in an area the size of a saucer at ten yards quickly.

Types and Sizes: Pros and Cons

Pocket Guns

When many folks think of a concealed carry gun, they think of little-bitty pocket pistols that will easily disappear into a pocket or purse. While these may be light and convenient, that’s all they are. Aside from that, they’re pretty useless. They lack the power to put down a determined attacker and they lack the accuracy to hit anything at more than spitting distance. But even more importantly, most little guns are unpleasant to shoot. Being very light and having small handles, their muzzle flip is very bad. After a few rounds your hand may begin to hurt. Shoot a match or take a class at Gunsite with one of these pocket guns? Forget it. If you don’t learn to use it, how much good is it going to do you when the chips are down? In this group, I would include the small Berettas, Airweight snubnose revolvers, Seecamp .32’s, Kel-Tek .32’s and derringers. There may be a place for these pistols, but they all suffer from serious inadequacies. (I am particularly fond of the Airweight snubnose .38 Special revolver, but it can be an unpleasant gun to fire.)

Medium Frame Revolvers

Even though they have been around for 165 years, revolvers remain an excellent solution. These pistols are simple to use and accurate. They can handle hot loads and larger bullets making them effective personal defense weapons. Examples of this class of pistol are the Ruger GP Series and the S&W Model 66. The ideal revolver would have a 3″ to 4″ barrel, a six-round cylinder, and a grip that fills your hand. The biggest drawback of these pistols is the speed of reloading, but with practice, a revolver can be reloaded as quickly as an autoloader.

Medium Frame Auto Pistols

The overwhelming majority of professional trainers, operators, law enforcement and military people prefer medium to large framed autoloading pistols. These pistols have the best combination of speed, firepower, accuracy, and power. These pistols will generally load 8-10 rounds in their magazines (or more if you can find the magazines), have full-length grips, and 3.5″ or longer barrels. These guns tend to have adequate accuracy and power, and large enough grips to be comfortable. Examples of this type of pistol would be the Glock 17, 19, 21 and 22, the S&W 39xx, 59xx, and 69xx series, the SIG 22x series, the H&K USP and P7, the Kimber ProCarry and Compact, the Springfield Champion, Para-Ordnance P12, and many others.

Large Frame Pistols and Revolvers

I like big pistols. They shoot more accurately, absorb more recoil, and develop greater muzzle velocity due to their longer barrels. I would include in this group the Beretta 92, the Colt Government Model M1911 (and clones), The N Frame S&W revolvers, Colt Python, Anaconda and their copies. Characteristically, these guns have 5″ barrels and weigh 36 oz. or more. The biggest drawback of these pistols is their weight. They get heavy and small framed people may have difficulty concealing them.

Autoloader Action Types

There are four types of actions around which semi-auto pistols are built. It’s important to understand the differences:

Single Action - M1911 Colt .45 ACP and Browning Hi-Power 9mm

This is the oldest autoloader design still in service, designed by John Browning (with the help of the Army Ordnance Board) during the period between 1905 and 1911. The hammer must be cocked, generally by racking the slide, for the gun to fire. This design in .45 ACP, .40 S&W and .38 Super is favored by competitive shooters, FBI SWAT, FBI Hostage Rescue Team, and many special forces units because it has the best trigger, outstanding accuracy and is very fast. For the gun to be carried in a state of readiness, the hammer must be cocked and the manual safety applied, “cocked and locked” (see “The Conditions of Readiness”). This looks scary and is not recommended for novices or those suffering from attention deficit disorder.

Double Action/Single Action - Beretta 92F (Armed Forces M9), most Smith & Wesson autos, SIG, Walther, and some Rugers.

This has been the standard design for most autos for the last 50 years. These pistols are cocked by the first trigger pull, but subsequent shots are cocked by the action of the slide cycling back. Consequently, the first trigger pull is long and harder (Double Action) since it is also cocking the hammer. Subsequent trigger pulls are easy (Single Action) since the hammer is already cocked. These guns have an external safety lever which puts the gun on safe and de-cocks the hammer. This is generally thought to be the safest design since the long, heavy first trigger pull and the external safety which blocks the firing pin tend to prevent the gun from going off by accident. The criticism of this design is that it forces the shooter to learn two different trigger pulls and accuracy often suffers on the first double action shot. Most accidental discharges with these sorts of pistols are the result of the shooter forgetting to de-cock the hammer.

Double Action/Single Action with De-Cocker Only - Ruger and SIG

This is a variant of the DA/SA which is used by Ruger and SIG. It functions just like a DA/SA except the “safety” lever is not a safety. It only de-cocks the hammer, but the gun will still fire when the de-cocker is applied and the trigger is pulled. I personally do not like this design since the de-cocker looks just like a safety lever but does not put the gun on safe.

Double Action Only - Glock, Smith & Wesson Sigma, some Berettas, some Rugers, Kahr, Kel-Tec, and others.

This is the newest action design made popular by Glock. With these pistols every trigger pull is the same and they have no external safety or decocking levers. The hammers are not cocked by the cycling of the slide (except for the Glocks which are pre-cocked by the slide cycle, and are not true double action). DAO pistols depend on the long double action trigger pull to prevent accidental discharges. In a sense these are autoloaders which fire like revolvers. Triggers vary from model to model. Some, like the Glocks, have very light triggers. Other DAO triggers can be quite heavy and long, and can be very unpleasant to shoot. The advantage of this action is its simplicity and the fact that every trigger pull is the same.

Calibers and Power

Here we get into mysticism and voodoo, and I will just give you my personal opinion and you can take it for what it’s worth. I like the .45 ACP and the .357 Magnum the best. Just under them in effectiveness are the .40 S&W, the .44 Special and the 9mm. Below them are the .38 Special and the .380 ACP. There are other cartridges, but these are the most common for personal defense weapons and the ammunition is readily available.

I wouldn’t be comfortable with anything smaller than a .380 (actually, I wouldn�t be comfortable with anything smaller than a .45 ACP, but that�s a different argument. See also Jim Higginbotham’s “Case for the .45 ACP”). My personal favorite handgun cartridge is the .45 ACP because of its power and accuracy, but smaller cartridges will do the job if you do your part. Like the selection of the gun, the selection of a cartridge should be based on your ability to shoot it well. A good hit with a .380 is better than a miss with a .45. So, as a general rule, your self defense cartridge should be the largest and most powerful load that you shoot well.

The Selection Process

Don’t be in a rush to buy the first gun you see. Give it a lot of thought. Ideally, shoot as many pistols as you can before you make a decision. Most gun ranges have pistols you can rent to see how they feel. If you have friends who own pistols, go shooting with them. Most will be happy to let you shoot their guns and share with you their experiences with them.

Be careful about the advice of clerks at gun stores. Some are very knowledgeable but many others are total idiots. Just because someone works at a gun store doesn’t necessarily mean that he or she is an expert on personal defense pistols. They will all offer an opinion, whether they actually know anything about the matter or not.

I would also maintain a healthy degree of skepticism toward articles in popular gun magazines. They don�t make money by trashing the offerings of their advertisers.

Consider how you dress and your lifestyle. How will you carry the pistol? Can you adjust your wardrobe to accommodate your pistol? Particular body shapes may present special problems. Your physical strength and conditioning may also be a factor, i.e., powerful auto pistols tend to function better for people with strong arms and hands. How much time do you have to devote to practice? As a rule of thumb, autos require more training than revolvers, so don’t pick a single-action .45 auto if you’re not willing to learn to use it.

As important as any other single factor is the size and geometry of your hand. Hand size varies greatly between people and it is very important to handle a gun and note carefully the comfort of the grip and the position of the controls on the pistol. If you can’t easily manipulate every control on the gun with either hand, then find a different gun. People with short thumbs may have trouble with the safety of an M1911. People with short palms may have difficulty with the thick handles of the double-stack 9mm and .40 pistols. People with meaty hands may be “bitten” by the slide of a small auto when it cycles.

Does the gun feel good in your hand? Is the trigger smooth or is it rough and heavy? Is the frame fairly narrow so that it will conceal well? Does the gun have the right balance of power, weight and size? (Remember, bigger is better for shooting and power, but can you carry it for 8 hours if you have to?)

You will notice that I have said nothing about price. I really hate to hear people making a decision on a handgun based on price. No one wants to pay more than we have to or what is fair, but price should be the last consideration. You won�t remember a hundred or so dollars extra you paid for the right pistol, but you will remember the ill-fitting bargain pistol that doesn�t shoot right or feel good.

To summarize, hold it, feel it, fire it if you can, and recognize that you’re going to spend a lot of time with the pistol. Remember also, that it may be called upon someday to defend your life. No, it isn’t easy, and you may end up buying two or three pistols before you find the one with just the right balance of weight, power and comfort.

Holsters

The selection of a holster which fits the gun you intend to carry is critically important. For a detailed discussion on this matter, click here.

Reloads

Most of the tactical gurus recommend the carry of at least one reload. If you observe police officers, they often carry 2-4 extra magazines or speed-loaders. If your gun is an autoloader, the second magazine is a good idea for two reasons: (1) you may need the extra rounds (and it’s better to have them and not need them than to need them and not have them), and (2) magazines sometimes fail and having a backup will ensure that you won’t get caught with a non-functioning gun. Hopefully, very few of us will ever need twenty one or more rounds, but the carry of a spare magazine or speed-loader is just a wise practice. One of the reasons I prefer an autoloader to a wheel gun in this role is that the flat shape of a magazine is easier to carry on your belt than the rounded and somewhat bulky shape of the speed-loader used for revolvers.

Summary of Selection Criteria

1. Your personal defense weapon should be as large and as powerful as you can shoot accurately and carry with a reasonable degree of comfort and concealment.
2. Your personal defense weapon should fit your hand perfectly.
3. You should be able to manipulate the controls of your weapon with either hand alone.
4. Your personal defense weapon should be of sturdy construction and be able to withstand heavy use and rough handling.
5. Your personal defense weapon should be accurate enough to consistently hit a target the size of a saucer at 10 yards quickly.
6. Select the largest caliber you can shoot well, and a caliber for which ammunition is readily available.
7. A good quality holster must be available for the model of pistol you intend to carry.

This article clearly outlines how clever criminals come up with more new ways to steal the “keys to the kingdom” - ATM card numbers and pins.

I wonder if one rationalization they use is they are not really stealing from people, they are stealing from VISA……………although VISA usually just makes the merchant pay.

http://www.darkreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=155106&f_src=drdaily

Part one of many on why a gun ban is not only unconsitutional (and illegal unless juges decide to make up so more laws) but harmful to citizens. This is an overview and may be a little disjointed, but I hope to go more in depth in the coming weeks.

 

1. The right to keep and bear arms is a fundemental constitutional right.

 

I took a speech class where one of my classmates proposed the school ban cell phones, and the place was in an uproar. People are more upset about gas prices or privacy infringements then they are about the Federal Government trying to take the right to carry guns - and thus the ability to defend oneself. People wh would throw a fit if the government came through the door and demanded phone records are OK with the government reaching into their pockets and confiscating their weapons.

 

A. The Second Amendment states that “the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.” There are no exceptions. If I am a law-abiding citizen, of the proper age and with a permit, want to carry a gun, the Federal Government is not allowed to reach out and take that gun away.

I’m sure some would argue the first part of the amendment, “A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state” means only military. This is not it at all. The meaning is that in order for private citizens, you and me, to be able to protect ourselves and our country, the government has no power whatsoever to take away our guns or means of defense. Who was the militia at this time? The people. Granted, if the Founding Fathers had picked a better gramatical construct we mightnot be arguing this as much, but look at the context, and what ELSE they said.

 

B. The Forth Amendment also related to rules that certain cities have put in place where no-one is alowed to carry a weapon. “The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”

 

I suppose ‘unreasonable’ may catch me up, because people say ‘Hey, it’s not reasonable to carry a gun on the streets of Chicago’ Well first I want them to go walk the streets of Chicago and tell me they feel safe. 

 

If I have a permit (not permitted for felons, underage, etc etc), what’s unreasonable about that? The unreasonable part is banning them outright.

 

Now, private enterprises have the right to ask no weapons be brought into certain situations, but government restrictions are what are limiting us. Also, no private company has the right to enforce rules which endanger our lives and our country, which these regulations are doing. These regulations put me in more danger.

 

2. Gun bans which are in place (certain areas) and which people are trying to enact are unconsitutional. They also endanger individuals and our country.

 

I’m in Chicago, and I get mugged. Or beaten. Or raped. If I have chosen not to carry a gun for my own personal reasons, that is one thing. But if the government has forcefully interfered and bypassed my freedom of choice whether or not I want to maximize my ability to defend myself (possibly against a criminal ignoring the gun ban him or her self) . . . well, that’s just great, isn’t it.

 

These unconstitutional bans put me in more danger than I have to be, while not actually limiting the criminals. (See a later installment where I will point out how these bans have failed).

 

These rules can put the country in danger as well. The government has shown in word and action they believe planes to be one of the most logical locations/means of a terrorist attack.. Stepping onto the green at the Masters or walking into a business meeting carry no such inherent threats, and therefore a private institution asking us to hand over our firearms in order to attend an optional event is an annoying but allowable encroachment. Golf courses cannot be used against our country. Planes can. 

 

Let me pick on airlines for a minute. When it is admittedly more probable that a plane may be used as a giant missile, the government should do all it can to help us prevent such an action against our own country. Instead we are handcuffed at every turn. A government agency (FAA) bans all weapons, after they say that putting ourselves on a plane is putting ourselves at greater risk. Airlines have are not required to hav someone on board to secure our safety or that of the other innocents in buildings around the country, or the country itself. And they will not let us secure our own. If someone smuggles a shoe bomb, or razor, or even just 6 big strong men on board, they’re the ONLY ones with a chance. Even the heroes who crashed in a PA field, that’s the best they could do. What if they could have lived? (More on this in a later installment - did you know at least 4 of those passengers were liscenced weapons carriers? A bit of a deterrent to terrorism, no?)

 

Of course they do not bother to mention is that these measures are unconstitutional. The second amendment gives citizens the right to “keep and bear arms” and does not list any specific exclusions like “not on a boat with gunpowder” or modern-day transportation. Again, it’s true that some private institutions prohibit weapons on their premises, but this is different.

 

a) in case of the airline restrictions it is the Federal Government denying us our basic constitutional rights, which they are supposed to defend, not take away. They can’t pick and choose pick and choose when to allow our rights and when to take them away. That, by definition, is not our RIGHTS.

 

b) The government’s job is to keep us safe. A private enterprise may have other priorities, but the laws of this country should not put us in MORE danger than is inherent in climbing into a metal tube.

 

So many in government are attemting to blatantly ignore our rights. The government is violating two amendments. They have no right to search my person and take the guns I have a legal permit for, let alone my nail clippers. If you think it’s OK to throw out the constitution, then let’s go all the way. No freedom of speech or religion. The government should not be allowed to pick and choose when to violate the constitution. If you want to live in a country that has unlimited powers, go to Cuba. But until either the constitution or manner of governing airplane regulation is changed, this is wrong.

 

Our government is illegally depriving us of our fundamental right to defend ourselves! It could be argued that not allowing weapons planes puts us and our country in danger, and contributed to the planes’ passengers not being able to do anything to save themselves and others on 9/11. This lack of regard for the law and concern for your life could kill you.

 

 

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
—Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.

[C]onceived it to be the privilege of every citizen, and one of his most essential rights, to bear arms, and to resist every attack upon his liberty or property, by whomsoever made. The particular states, like private citizens, have a right to be armed, and to defend, by force of arms, their rights . . .
14 Debates in the House of Representatives, ed. Linda Grand De Pauw. (Balt., Johns Hopkins Univ. Press, 1972), 92-3.

 

 

Hey guys.

I live in Kentucky. And because of this, I have a lot of friends that go deer hunting all the time. I was wondering if I were to start hunting deer as well, what rifle should I use/buy?

I already have a MN 91/30, but I think the bore is dead. x_x

I also have a Yugo SKS that works really nice, but I’m not sure if I’d like to bring a Semi-Auto with me… Makes me feel like I’m allowed to have a follow up shot. And I’ve also heard that they’re a bit harder to hit stuff with 200+ yards.

I’ve been thinking about saving up for another Mosin that’s in better condition, and putting a new stock on it, and maybe get a scope on it too. I could run over and get the gun itself for around $130, which is a steal. Haha.

I’ve also been looking at those Remington Model 700’s… But I don’t have $600+ to throw around. =/

I’m not sure what to do. Can you guys help me out?

Thanks all!

Ferro

Well I got made twice this week. The weather has turned hot and I made the switch from my jeans and t-shirt, to the shorts and t-shirt. Was wearing my xd 40sc with my crossbreed holster and beltman belt. Got made a few days ago in Pep Boys. Guy behind the counter asked me what I was carrying. That was a wake-up call for me. I figured I had just gotten lazy in my carry routine and let a bulge or butt slip out from under the t-shirt. So, I have been extra careful in my cover-ups. Today I went to the dreaded wally-world for kids bubble bath and baby shampoo(not that what I purchased matters). Anyway, I was walking to my car carrying my bag of purchases, and a state trooper pulls up next to me. He rolls down his window and asks me to come over. He says “Son, you do have a carry permit, right?” I respond “Yes sir.” He then tells me to be safe, rolls up his window and drives away. This was at 7am or so. I go home, and stand on front of the mirror for a while, bug the wife, with the, can you see it now questions, etc…. Anyway, i decided that the xd is simply too fat for summer-time carry.

Proceeded to the gun store this morning to look at replacing my xd. Spent an hour or so looking and found a Colt New Agent. Very nice. They just got it in last night. I was originally looking at a Kimber, and I have been wanting to join the 1911 club for quite some time now. Originally I came across a stainless Ultra Carry and really liked it, but for some odd reason it was a 9mm ultra carry. The salesman said that Kimbers customer support leaves a lot to be desired. He then showed ma the New Agent. It was $50.00 less than the Ultra, but thats not a terrible difference.

Anyway, I put the New Agent on layaway. I like the trench sights, not an IDPA gun, but for sd, trench sights are planty effective with some practice. Nice and thin and best of all, it’s a COLT!!!!!

Anyone out there have a New Agent? Will regular 1911 parts, holsters fit it? (hammers, grips, etc…)

p.s…. If anyone in NC is interested in an XD .40sc with a supertuck, let me know.

Picked up my new rifle from Major Malfunction today, and I have to say, this rifle is all too easy to fall in love with. The trigger is an adjustable two stage, but out of the box it feels amazingly light and crisp. The toggle bolt (Fortner Action) is smooth and easy to operate, in fact, I can operate it with my trigger finger without moving my hand from the grip. All in all, I am quite impressed.

I stopped by Sportsmans Warehouse to pick up some rings so I could mount another ridiculous scope on a .22LR. This time, a BSA Platinum Target 36×44mm AO w/ Target Dot reticle.

Anyhow, enough with the yapping and on to the pics!

Video of the toggle bolt in action, it sounds really gritty, but it feels very smooth. I have yet to clean it so we’ll see.

I’m amazed at how straight up and maybe even slightly pro-gun this article is written! The DA for Cumberland County, David Freed is even quoted stating the facts about not having the duty to retreat in your house! And he says that someone breaking into an occupied home assumes the risk of being shot by the homeowner!

I’m amazed…I think I might send a note to the author thanking him.

I made the quotes from the AD in bold.

http://www.pennlive.com/news/patriot…740.xml&coll=1
__________________________________________________ _________
Armed homeowner foils invasion
Saturday, May 31, 2008
BY MATT MILLER
Of Our Cumberland County Bureau
CARLISLE - Eugene Johnson reacted in a flash when his wife heard someone kick in the back door of their Carlisle home at 2:30 a.m. Friday.

Johnson, 75, a retired Army sergeant first class who fought in the Korean War, grabbed his pistol. He was ready when a silhouette of a man appeared in the darkened doorway of his bedroom.

“He said, ‘Don’t move, I have a gun,’” Johnson recalled. “I said, ‘Buddy, I’ve got a gun, too, and it’s [aimed] right on you.

“Things got quiet then,” he said.

They got quiet because the would-be home invader had high-tailed it out of there, police said.

Johnson would have been legally justified in pulling the trigger, Cumberland County District Attorney David Freed said.

“The homeowner acted appropriately,” Freed said. “Criminals who break into occupied homes assume the risk of being shot by the homeowners.”
Johnson, a 20-year Army veteran who spent nearly three years as a prisoner of war in North Korea, said Friday’s incident occurred two weeks after another burglary at his home in the 1200 block of North West Street.

He and his wife, Bernadine, 71, were away during the May 16 break-in. “They trashed the place and stole money,” Johnson said.

The back door that was damaged in the earlier burglary had not yet been repaired when the invader or invaders kicked it in Friday. Once inside, the culprit or culprits turned off the home’s electricity, he said.

“My wife heard the back door being smashed. All at once the lights went out, and she told me, ‘Get your gun,’” Johnson said.

He said he isn’t sure how many people were involved in the break-in, but he saw only one man and heard one male voice.

Lt. Michael Dzezinski said police don’t know if the May 16 burglary and Friday’s home invasion are connected.

The man who threatened the Johnsons might have been trying to detain them while accomplices rifled through the house, he said.

Police don’t have a description of the burglar who confronted the couple, and no suspects were found during a search of the area immediately after the invasion, Dzezinski said.

Anyone with information may call police at 243-5252.

MATT MILLER: 249-2006 or mmiller@patriot-news.com

USING DEADLY FORCE

Cumberland County District Attorney David Freed said Pennsylvania law allows residents to use deadly force to protect themselves from threats in their homes. They do not have an obligation to retreat before using such force, as they would under other circumstances.
_______________________________________________

Hi All, I have been going through some maintenance on my wheel guns lately which consists of removing the sideplate, cleaning, lubing and lock flag removal in the case that the gun has the lock. Only a very few of my smith revolvers have the dreaded lock. I did this to my much carried 642. Last night I did it to my circa 2004 mountain gun in .44 mag.

Now I bought this gun used a couple years ago. The shop was liquidating a gentlemans collection that included this gun and a .45 colt mountain gun. My gun was claimed to have had a S&W performance center action job. In any event it had the best trigger pull I have ever felt on a smith N-frame.

The gun had one problem that allowed me to get it at an obscenely low price despite being in unfired condition. The lock would engage when you turned the key to lock, but the flag would not drop when the key was turned to unlock, you had to push it down with your thumb. I got $100 off the price of this consignment gun when I discovered the flaw in the shop, so the owner wouldnt have to deal with sending it to S&W.

Now I have fired a couple thousand rounds on the range about half were target and half were full powered loads without the lock self engaging. S&W did send me a shipping label when I called them the day I bought the gun. I never did send it in cause they would only fix the lock not remove it.

The amazing DA trigger was the main reason I didnt send it.

So last night I removed the side plate, took out the hammer and removed the lock flag.

The gun has a reduced mainspring just like the one in the Brownells kit, it also has a reduced rebound slide spring. The other thing I discovered is that there were very thin stainless steel shims on both sides of the hammer, they look like a paper thin washer, and on both sides of the trigger as well (under and over. I assume they are to reduce any play and contribute to the amazing trigger and 100% ignition in DA even with CCI primers.

I’m pretty sure the reduced springs are not something the performance center would do. It does seem whoever did the action job knew what they were doing.

Is this typical for a professional action job??

Is this something the performance center would do???

Are the shims a necessary part of the action job?

I would like to duplicate the trigger pull on a couple of my other N-frames.

Thanks

This is going to be fun! Top Gun. These cops have to do some fancy ridding. There is a few rides this weekend but not as fun as this one. Last night Joe and I rode up there just to check it out. We seen two Arvada cops on there Harley’s. They stopped and talked to us. Joe said something about rice burners and the cop said we just push them off the road. LOL!!!!!! I Ride a Honda shadow it’s fast enough. I hear some of the turns they have to do will push them and there bikes to the edge, I only hope no one will go down, I would not wish that on anyone. I’m going to take a lot of pictures of this one.

The winner gets a cocobolo pen to write tickets with. If there was a law against under speeding, I would get a ticket every day!

After visiting 4 gunshops in luzerne county I was unable to find a G17 GLOCK in stock. All of them stated they would have to order one. IMHO this is a standard model which should be in stock if your a GLOCK dealer. One of the shops (whos name I’ll keep annonimous) actually lied to me said it was in stock, I drove 10 miles out of my way to get to. When I got there he said whooops I thought I did and tried to sell me an M&P instead. I knew what kind of buisness he was running at that point. All these shops acted very independent and really seemed like they didn’t need the buisness( NOWADAYS???) Not a good way to act in todays sinking economy.

After many calls I finally found Gun Toters in Eynon. Excelent manners, knowledgible, and didn’t BS me what so ever. After a brief conversation he gave me a nice discount $475 out the door. So I decided on buying the rest of my accessaries there, about $130 worth. I would recommend them highly. I plan on buying a G34 in the near future and guess who is going to get the sale?

The Training accident of the Day. …or month …or year…
For the guys in the vehicle? …GO TO CHURCH!
…

Sobering shot of an SUV that got lit up by mistake, by an F16 driver near the air-ground gunnery range outside Dugway, Utah. The ‘light paint and body damage’ is the result of a one-quarter-second burst by the fighter’s 20 mm gun, which fires about 3000 rounds per minute. An estimated 70 rounds left the gun; the results are as you see here.

What’s even more astonishing is - the SUV was being driven at the time. The driver and the guy in the right-hand passenger seat escaped with some light glass injury to the driver, and a dislocated shoulder to the passenger. The shots hit the gas tank, but didn’t explode; the gas just leaked out.

The passenger who normally sits in the back seat had just moved to another vehicle. ?

The vehicle was on the military reservation, but a full three miles away from the gunnery range.

The pilot is probably doubtless be busily writing ‘I WILL NOT ENGAGE SOFT CIVILIAN VEHICLES IN NO-FIRE ZONES’ 1,000 times, after which he will be PCS’d to Shemya AFB, Alaska.

The good news is that he only had 508 plus or minus 2 rounds of ball training ammo and not HEI (high explosive incendiary)!?? I would imagine this event will have an impact on his career!
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USA
May 6 2008

On April 15, 2008, Florida Governor Charlie Crist signed into law Florida
Statute §790.251 over the objections of several business associations and
companies. While the bill is formally titled “The Preservation and
Protection of the Right to Keep and Bear Arms in Motor Vehicles Act of
2008,” pundits have dubbed the legislation the “Take Your Gun to Work” law.
The new law, already the subject of a federal lawsuit, could potentially
alter the workplace for any company with Florida facilities and operations.

The substance of the new law prohibits a business or employer from
precluding employees (including independent contractors) , customers and
other invitees from bringing concealed firearms onto business property, such
as a parking lot, providing the bearer has a valid permit for the weapon and
the firearm is stored out of sight. Additionally, the law prohibits
employers and business operators from making inquiries regarding the
presence of a firearm in a motor vehicle on the business property or
searching the vehicle to ascertain the presence of a firearm. Employers are
also prohibited from conditioning an offer of employment on the fact that an
applicant does or does not have a permit to carry a firearm, and may not
require an employee to refrain from lawfully keeping a firearm in their
personal vehicle. Most notably, the law prohibits an employer from
terminating or “otherwise discriminating” against an employee or customer
for possessing a firearm so long as the firearm is not exhibited on company
property for “any unlawful purpose.” The law applies exclusively to firearms
and ammunition and not to other types of weapons such as knives or
explosives.

Certain types of businesses such as schools, nuclear power plants, national
defense contractors and properties where explosives or combustible materials
are located are exempt from the law. Remarkably, businesses such as day care
centers, hospitals, nursing homes, restaurants and shopping malls are not
exempt. Employers or business operators who violate the new law are subject
to suit by the state’s attorney general or by private individuals.

Employers with facilities in Florida should be aware that under the
provisions of the new law they can no longer enforce policies that prohibit
employees with valid permits from bringing firearms into facility parking
lots. Moreover, as the law is written, employers cannot discipline an
employee with a valid permit for carrying a concealed weapon into the actual
business facility. Employers may still have a policy that prohibits an
employee from carrying a firearm into its facility, but employers will no
longer be able to discipline the employee if she or he violates that policy.

The law does provide some measure of protection for employers and business
operators by immunizing them from civil liability for any incident that
arises directly from their compliance with the law. However, the statute
does not provide immunity to individual managers, supervisors or directors,
and it does not address immunity for an employer who had warning of an
employee’s propensity for violence. Moreover, the new law creates a
significant problem for employers who are trying to comply with the federal
Occupational Safety and Health Act (OSHA). OSHA requires an employer to
eliminate hazards from the workplace that create risk of death or physical
harm. Employers who do not comply with OSHA face stiff consequences from the
federal government. The new Florida statute puts employers in an
uncomfortable situation of trying to comply with both a state and federal
law that are in sharp contrast to each other.

On April 21, 2008 a group of Florida-based business associations and the
state’s chamber of commerce filed a lawsuit in federal court seeking to have
F.S. §790.521 declared unconstitutional. Until the matter is resolved in the
courts, however, employers with facilities in Florida should revisit their
handbooks and workplace violence procedures to assess compliance with the
new law.

OK, I needed a good, little bedroom safe for quick handgun access. I have small children so I have to keep any guns locked away. My first thought was a GunVault but I thought I’d better search TFL for ideas and alternatives. I found that GunVault had some negative comments associated with it.

An alternative I found on TFL was the DAC Sportsafe from WallyWorld. At $62.98, it was about half the price of the GunVault. Yes, it’s made in China, but so are GunVault components. I ordered it and planned on installing it in my nightstand next to my bed. I did, and took pictures meanwhile. Since I like having a ‘how-to’ to look at and learn from, I figure others do as well, so I am posting it here.

First to describe the safe. It’s a combination of quality build and cheap looks. It is built of relatively heavy gauge steel. There is nothing obviously wrong with it, but you can tell it’s made in China, just by its looks. However, it performs flawlessly. The buttons work as designed and it always opens when it’s supposed to. They shouldn’t have wasted their time with the weak, little light inside. The only annoyance is that the door slams when it opens. There are rubber pads but they are too small so I’ll have to add something. The safe is coated in a black, slightly rough substance that gives the safe a nice finish. The door could be pried open relatively quickly but this is not a real gun safe per se. It’s to keep one gun handy for home defense while still keeping the kids away from it. The rest of the guns belong in a real, heavy duty safe. (I use the word ‘safe’ for this discussion because I can’t think of a better word, but you understand the difference).

Overall, this is a great safe, especially for the money. I recommend it. So, without further ado, here is what I did:

I started with the nightstand, drawer removed. I don’t have a big-enough work bench so I flipped over a trash can.

Then you need a safe. This is the box for the DAC Sportsafe.

These are the tools I needed. The safe came with large screws to attach the base to the wood, but I didn’t use them since I wanted to use carriage bolts for a stronger connection.

This is the top of the base plate. The idea is that the base plate attaches to the surface, then the safe attaches to the base. This makes the safe portable by adjusting the little sliders inside the safe and lifting the safe off of the base. However, I plan to keep the safe permanently attached, and I want a strong connection. The little sliders inside the safe look pretty easy to defeat by just tugging on the safe. So, I removed them and used carriage bolts through the same holes. Also, the base plate is supposed to go directly under the safe but since I am attaching my safe to a piece of wood furniture, I wanted to have steel on BOTH sides of the wood (this seems more secure to me), so I used the base plate on the opposite side of the wood.

To locate the safe on the shelf of the nightstand, I selected as far right and back as possible. This is because I am right-handed, and because the way the room is configured, it will hide the safe better. I used a Sharpie to mark drill holes in the shelf.

In order for the base plate to sit flat on the underside of the wood, I had to use a saw to nibble away some of the wood backing of the nightstand. The base plate is longer than the safe and I forgot to allow for this. The nibbled area will be hidden from view anyway, so no big deal.

(continued in next post…)

Wal-Mart, largest gun retailer, to videotape all transactions
by Joseph P. Tartaro
Executive Editor

Wal-Mart, the nation’s largest seller of firearms, announced on Apr. 14 that it will adopt new rules for gun sales, from storing videotaped records of purchases to creating an internal log of which guns they sell that are later used in crimes.

J.P. Suarez, the chief compliance officer for Wal-Mart Stores Inc., appeared with outspoken gun control advocate Mayor Michael Bloomberg of New York City to announce the changes at a gathering of Bloomberg’s group Mayors Against Illegal Guns in Washington, DC.

The announcement was part of the “MAIG National Summit” held in the Ronald Reagan Building and International Trade Center as part of a two-day anti-gun effort in cooperation with the Congressional Task Force on Illegal Guns, which conducted a “public hearing” on Capitol Hill the following day. Gun Week learned that no pro-gun or firearms trade organizations were invited to either the MAIG Summit or the House panel’s hearing.

According to Associated Press (AP), Wal-Mart will be:

Creating a record and alert system to record when a gun sold at Wal-Mart is later used in a crime. If the purchaser of that gun later tries to buy another gun at Wal-Mart, the system would alert the sales clerk of the prior buy and could refuse to make the sale;

Retaining the recorded images of gun sales in case law enforcement wants to view them later as part of an investigation;

Expanding background checks of employees who handle guns, and

Expanding inventory controls.
Suarez said the tougher standards will come with some additional cost to the company.

“The costs are, we think, part of what it takes to be responsible. Everything is not pain-free,” he said, adding that small sellers can implement many of the same rules. He did not say how long it would take to implement all the changes, but noted that software must still be created for an internal log of guns later used in crimes.

Suarez said his company may receive some pressure from gun rights groups, but added, “This is not a signal that we’re getting out of firearms.”

However, neither Suarez nor any other representative of Wal-Mart has explained the retailer’s growing list of stores which are getting out of retail firearms sales to American consumers. When questioned by Gun Week with respect to reports from various states that Wal-Mart was discontinuing firearms sales while continuing to sell ammunition, the company’s explanation is that the decisions have been based on market and consumer demand.

Reaction
Some firearms dealers, many of whom have been on the short side of competition with Wal-Mart for firearms, ammunition and accessory sales wondered if a backlash against the discount retailer would bring business to their doors.

The National Rifle Association (NRA) immediately denounced the Wal-Mart’s move.

“I view it as a public relations stunt that stigmatizes law-abiding firearms purchasers exercising their freedom under the Constitution,” said NRA CEO Wayne LaPierre, according to AP. He said that if politicians were serious about reducing gun crime they would worry less about legal sellers and buyers and get tougher criminal sentences for illegal gun dealers.

“I honestly think it’s a corporation trying to curry favor with politicians as opposed to doing anything meaningful about stopping crime,” said LaPierre.

Wal-Mart sells only rifles and shotguns in some of its US stores, with the exception of Alaska sites, which also sell handguns.

Of course, Bloomberg urged other companies to join Wal-Mart in the initiative called the Responsible Firearms Retailer Partnership.

But the response from the National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF)—the firearms industry’s trade association—said the partnership’s name gives the false impression that federally licensed firearms dealers are somehow irresponsible.

“Today’s announcement reflects Mayor Bloomberg’s troubling ignorance and misunderstanding of what can—and cannot—be gleaned from data of guns recovered by law enforcement and traced from the manufacturer to the first retailer purchaser,” said NSSF Senior Vice President and General Counsel Lawrence G. Keane. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) maintain this trace data.

ATF has said repeatedly, “The appearance of (a licensed dealer) or a first unlicensed purchaser of record in association with a crime gun or in association with multiple crime guns in no way suggests that either the federal firearms licensed dealer (FFL) or the first purchaser has committed criminal acts. Rather, such information may provide a starting point for further and more detailed investigation.”

NSSF has never opposed background checks on firearm retailer employees. “We have had a program to assist our members in running background checks on their prospective employees at a discounted rate,” said Keane. “NSSF would consider supporting legislation to allow gun dealers to conduct background checks on prospective employees through the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS), which is currently prohibited by law.”

“It is stunning that a mayor who claims to be interested in combating the criminal acquisition and misuse of firearms would continue to insult ATF and federal firearms licensees,” continued Keane. He was alluding to Mayor Bloomberg’s March 10, 2008, deposition—part of a lawsuit filed by the City of New York against several out-of-state firearms dealers. During the deposition Bloomberg testified he stood by his earlier statements that ATF is “asleep at the switch,” and added that the agency is “not doing their job.”

Bloomberg Admissions
NSSF noted that perhaps the mayor’s insults stems from his self-professed ignorance of our nation’s firearms laws and regulations, business practices of firearms retailers and the duties of the ATF. “I don’t know what the law is and what procedures are,” responded the mayor to a deposition question on illegally purchased firearms, NSSF quoted him. “I have no knowledge of what appropriate safeguards are for a dealer to comply with the law or what standard practices are in the arms business,” they quoted him.

In the same deposition Mr. Bloomberg admitted he did not know that ATF conducted inspections of firearms retailers. “I didn’t even know they had inspections,” the bewildered mayor offered and Bloomberg also noted that he did not know what a Federal Firearms Transaction Record, commonly known as a Form 4473 was or a NICS background check.

NSSF said that Bloomberg has rebuffed past firearms industry requests to educate him about industry’s cooperative relations with law enforcement in assisting them in their efforts to reduce criminal access to firearms, such as the partnership program between NSSF and ATF called “Don’t Lie for the Other Guy.”

“The mayor’s deposition and past statements make it clear that today’s announcement was nothing but a publicity stunt,” concluded Keane.

“We didn’t pressure them, they’re doing it because they think it’s the responsible thing to do,” Bloomberg he said.

However, Wal-Mart, the world’s largest retailer, had previously tried to establish a store in New York City but failed.

The MAIG gun summit also unveiled a new lobbying effort to close what they call the “gun show loophole,” which allows private sales of firearms without background check.

Bloomberg founded the group two years ago with Boston mayor Thomas Menino, allegedly to reduce the flow of guns from store displays into the hands of criminals.

The group, largely funded by Bloomberg’s personal fortune, announced it was spending more than $100,000 on television ads, effective Apr. 16, featuring all three of the current main presidential candidates voicing their opposition to the “gun show loophole.”

The ads will run in the home states of the three candidates—John McCain of Arizona, Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York and Barack Obama of Illinois. It also was scheduled to air across Pennsylvania before the Keystone States Apr. 22 presidential primary, as well as Florida, Maryland and Massachusetts.

Congressional Agenda
The mayors group really doesn’t have a new agenda; it is largely a rehash of older anti-gun initiatives that have been in Congress before, in some cases for years. However, MAIG, with the help of sympathetic lawmakers, is trying to gather support new support in Congress to:

End the gun show loophole, and require all private gun transfers to be conducted through FFLs.

Require gun dealers to perform criminal background checks on all gun-handling employees.

Close a so-called fire-sale loophole that allows gun dealers whose licenses have been revoked by the government to sell off their inventory without background checks.

Add those placed on the terrorist no-fly list, whether they are or are not suspects, to the list of people prohibited from purchasing a firearm.
The House Task Force hearing in the Rayburn House Office Building on the morning of Apr. 16 apparently got little media attention, and perhaps limited congressional attention. According to Gun Week sources, representatives on the Task Force were not all ears. In fact, members seemed to take turns attending the hearing which included testimony from Bloomberg and the mayors of Jacksonville, FL, and Baltimore, MD.

Co-chairs of the Task Force are Reps. Charles Rangel (D-NY), John Conyers (D-MI), Peter King (R-NY) and Mark Kirk (R-IL). The principles didn’t attend the whole hearing and other members took turns in presiding.

In addition to the four mayors, the Task Force had invited a former gun store employee who had observed problematic retail practices; a straw gun buyer; a gunrunner and a street criminal who had shopped in the black illegal market.

Poster’s note:

I can see, having read Bloomberg Admissions, why anti gun U.S. District Court Judge Jack Weinberg has blocked Mayor Bloomberg from testifying in the suit brought against him by Jay Wallace, proprietor of Adventure Outdoors, a Georgia gun dealership. I expect that, given his antics, that a trial jury might have found Bloomberg’s admitted ignorance “interesting”, to say the very least.

Last man standing:
Defiant Georgia gun dealer facing Bloomberg in court
by Dave Workman
Senior Editor

Other firearms dealers targeted by the questionable private gun “sting” operation mounted by New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg have folded against the financial pressure, and one has even announced she will close her doors next month.

But Jay Wallace, president of Adventure Outdoors in Smyrna, GA, is standing firm against what he insists is a false accusation, combined with a deliberate smearing of his reputation. On May 27, in a New York federal court in front of Judge Jack Weinberg, Wallace will defend his honor against the Goliath that is the anti-gun Big Apple mayor and his legal staff.

Wallace is looking forward to the opportunity to vindicate himself.

“It’s time that the industry know what’s going on with this case,” Wallace said in an interview with Gun Week. “My position is that I’ve done nothing wrong…I can prove that I’ve done nothing wrong.”

His New York attorney, John Renzuli, could not agree more.

“We’re going to try our case,” Renzuli said, “and show that the basis for this lawsuit is, in fact, baseless. They (attorneys for the city) should have done their homework before they went out and said some pretty bad things about Jay and his business.”

Cost of Defense
Wallace is bolstered by the fact that he has gotten small contributions from people all over the country, and even from some servicemen and women overseas, to help fight this case, but he is particularly fond of the Second Amendment Foundation, which has contributed several thousand dollars to his defense, and is “the number one contributor.” The National Rifle Association has also kicked in $1,000, and he has gotten some help from the industry, but it may be small in comparison to what Bloomberg and the city may have spent to push this case.

Contributions are still being accepted at: Bloombergfightbackfund.com.

The issue that frustrates Wallace the most is that, in his opinion, none of this would have been necessary, had only Bloomberg’s so-called “private investigators” approached him up front, explained what they felt were alleged shortcomings with his business practices, and then worked with him.

“I would have asked ‘what is the problem?’ and then I would have had open discussions with them,” Wallace stated, “and they would have discovered we do things quite well in our store.”

But instead of cooperation, Wallace said, Bloomberg wanted headlines.

Renzuli told Gun Week that Bloomberg’s office used raw gun trace data obtained from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) to make assumptions that simply are not accurate.

This trace data is retained by ATF for use in criminal investigations, but it does not reflect that every gun being traced was involved in the commission of a crime. Even the ATF has disavowed the use of raw data.

The Department of Justice last year warned Bloomberg’s office against trying anything like his “gun stings” in the future. Bloomberg went around law enforcement, hired private investigators (one of whom has since been murdered by her mother’s boyfriend) and conducted what critics have branded a “vigilante operation.” The case so infuriated ATF that the agency investigated to determine whether Bloomberg committed a crime, and ATF sources did acknowledge that the Bloomberg operation jeopardized on-going criminal investigations.

Firing back, Bloomberg criticized ATF for being “asleep at the wheel” in terms of enforcement against alleged “rogue” gun dealers from whose shops firearms somehow wind up in New York.

When the smoke cleared, the Justice Department announced that there was insufficient evidence to prove that any of the gun dealers sued by Bloomberg had committed a prosecutable crime. But the department warned Bloomberg that such “stings” might run afoul of federal law.

Weak Case?
According to Renzuli, the case against his client has some pretty weak spots, not the least of which is the absence of a fully-recorded transaction in the store. By some remarkable coincidence, the attorney said, both recordings made during the transaction at Adventure Outdoor were hampered by malfunctions. This apparently did not happen at any of the other stores visited by Bloomberg’s investigators.

There appears to be ample reason for his suspicions. The attorney told Gun Week that during a 2007 ATF compliance audit, Adventure Outdoors had essentially “a clean bill of health.” There was a single infraction, apparently having to do with stapling a National Instant Check System denial form to a Federal Form 4473 that had been filled out by the denied customer.

Wallace said that he has a good record of cooperating with ATF, and he believes regulating gun stores is the job of that agency, not the mayor of New York, a jurisdiction more than a thousand miles away in another state.

“We’ve set up our business to be 100% ATF compliant and then some,” he said.

There might be a bit of regulation coming at Bloomberg. Wallace has also retained former US Congressman Bob Barr to represent him in a counter-lawsuit against Bloomberg, a lawsuit that will be tried in Georgia despite Bloomberg’s best efforts to get it quashed or moved to New York.

Having watched all of the other defendant gun shops in Bloomberg’s e lawsuit ultimately fold, Wallace feels the burden of being the only retailer remaining so he is bearing the entire financial burden with the support he’s gotten.

“I am 100% committed,” he said. “I know how I’ve run my business. I am proud of the way I run my business.”

Poster’s Note:

What with 4,000,000 give or take menbers, I would think that the NRA could afford just a bit more than the $1000 mentioned. As for “the industry”, I assume that that references the firearms industry, ditto.

It’s a 218 ICL Bobcat, Mauser action, heavy 24″ barrel and a 20X Unertl scope thats 26″ long, weighs close to 11 LBS, alot of fun to shoot.

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Marlin Model 60 22 Long Rifle. Real nice gun. Wood is nice with a few handling marks. Bluing excellent. $125.00 In Purcell.

Heritage Sentry 38 cal. DA Pistol w/2″ snubnose barrel. Pistol is in good condition and functions perfectly. Would make a real nice truck gun. $135.00 FTF in Purcell.

BSA Platinum Series 24X Scope w/screw on covers. AO from 25yds-infinity. 1″ tube. Real nice with hardly niticeable ring marks. $75.00 shipped TYD.

I am putting together a rifle elk hunt in Colorado for the 2nd rifle season (Oct. 18-26) or 3rd rifle season (Nov. 1-7). Perhaps unit 521 or I am open to considering others.

I am looking for 3 to 10 hunters interested in organizing this hunt. Non-resident bull tags are over-the-counter and cost $526 plus a few small “fees” (less than $20). If born after 1949 you will need a hunter safety course card. This will be a “do-it-yourself” public land hunt and the exact location(s) can be determined by the group.

My regular hunting partners are cash and vacation-time short this year. I have hunted solo, in groups ranging from 2 to 12 and find that about 8 or 10 seams to work very well. With this size group meals and clean up and packing out game is a LOT less demanding on each hunter. Believe me, after spending all day walking up hill without air to breath, you don’t want to have to do ALL the cooking and clean up. Having a good size group sure can spread around camp duties.

I plan to pull my “off-road” pop-up trailer (can sleep 3 or 4) and an ATV in my 4×4 truck. Camping arrangements, camp “rules” , food, etc. can be determined by the group.

Normally, I scout the hunting area with my wife in July and go up a few days before opening day to set up and scout.

I live west of Norman, Oklahoma and with gas prices being what they are I was hoping to find one or two from this area to “truck pool” with. If not I can meet a Texas group on the way up. If anyone is interested in getting together call me at 405-650-2159 cell or email ricknolaninok@aol.com.